Part One

Maurice M Johnson vs. Albert J Kempin "Church of God" Minister
in the home of Clarence Morey, Long Beach, California
March 2, 1961

Kempin: Well, first of all, I'd cite a definition of the New Testament itself, so that we know what we're talking about when I say the Israel of the New Testament, we'll know what that New Testament is. If you will please turn with me to Luke's gospel chapter 16 verse 16 first of all, I'll read that verse to show what I mean by New Testament. Luke 16 verse 16 we read (am I going ... if anybody thinks I'm going too fast, tell me and I'll try to keep in touch with everybody), verse 16,

The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

So therefore, there are two things spoken of here in this verse. The legal dispensation embracing also the prophetic dispensation. The terminal point of both being the ministry and life of John. From that time on, from the time of John on, a new order came into being, it was the kingdom of God which was proclaimed. And the fact that every man pressed into it even then, shows us that the kingdom of God was then a present reality. That's it. So that's what I mean by New Testament.

Then Luke's gospel chapter one, let us read further to show what the New Testament is.  From verse 1:-4 we will read. The writer is saying to a very distinguished Roman person,

Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,

and the word "us" points to the Christians,

Even as they delivered them unto us,

mark you,

which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; it seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first,

that "very first" points back to the beginning with Christ, brethren. That beginning points to the life and ministry of Jesus Christ; there's no question about that.

understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed'.

Then we might read in 2 John verses 9-10, the definition of the idea of the New Testament. 2 John verses 9-10,

Look to yourselves,

well I'll start with 9,

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ,

the New Testament is the doctrine of Christ,

hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine,

what doctrine? the doctrine of Christ,

receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed.

Then in 1 John 1 verses 1-4,

That which was from the beginning,

and that beginning is always the beginning of Christ's ministry, earthly life in this world,

which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

And I think we could point at other scriptures like this (I have several others), but I think for the sake of brevity I would cease with this phase. Just to end this matter, I have shown you what I mean, I think, by the idea of the New Testament. The New Testament comprises the ministry, the life, the teachings of Christ to which the apostles and the writers point back saying this is the beginning for us as Christian people.

Now here's a definition of Israel of the Old Testament, if you please dear brethren and sisters. Let us turn to Romans 9 verses 1-5. A definition of Old Testament Israel, I shall read,

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren.

Notice his definition of Old Testament Israel,

my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh.

The Old Testament Israel is that,

kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and service of God, and the promises.

And Galatians 2 verse 5. Verse 15, l beg your pardon, verse 15.

We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles.

This is the Israel according to the flesh in opposition to the Gentiles.

Here we have now a definition of New Testament Israel. Let us turn to Romans, please. Romans chapter 2 verses 28-29, Paul's own statement concerning who is now in this dispensation an Israelite or a Jew. Verses 28-29,

For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

And in Romans the 9th chapter verses 6-8, you can read another statement which defines the New Testament Israel of God. Verses 6-8,

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect,

talking about Israel of the Old Testament,

For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel,

in other words, there is an Israel which doesn't belong to the natural Jew,

Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

And in Galatians the apostle says, "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye  Abraham's seed and heirs according to the promise".

Now let's turn to Galatians 3 and verse 16,

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made,

you see how Abraham skips over the fleshly Jews now here, earthly natural Jews,

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one. And to thy seed, which is Christ.

So the true prophecy concerning Abraham's seed was not fulfilled merely in Isaac and in the posterity that followed from Isaac, but the true prophecy was fulfilled in Jesus. Christ. We are Abraham's seed, which is Christ, we're told.

Then in Galatians chapter 3 verses 26-29, there's another definition that Paul gives, verses 26-29.

For ye are all the children of God,

mark you. They were the natural Israel back there. They were children of God by physical birth. That made them Israelites, by circumcision.

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Now the principle dear brothers and sisters is a New Testament principle. It's so simple that the average Bible student stumbles over it. Here it is. There are some who want to perpetrate the earthly Jew, the natural Jew, to make him still the center of all that shall happen by divine grace. But Paul differs, and I merely quote his statement to show the difference.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for,

believers, mark you, only believers,

for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed.

We are the true seed of Abraham, the Christian, the born again person, the child of God by faith in Jesus Christ, and also the Jew who accept Jesus Christ. I shall prove that later on because l shall show you where Paul nays, he says, "There is no difference between the Jew and the Greek for God hath concluded them all in unbelief that He might have mercy upon all". See that's the idea.

and heirs,

we are

heirs according to the promise.

What promise? The promise that God made to Abraham that through his steed all the nations of the earth should be blessed. What seed? Christ. Not the literal Jew, an end to that. Not seeds as of many, but of one, Christ, the Lord.

All right, then Galatians 6 verses 14-16. This is a very important passage of scripture. Some of our brothers pass it over very quickly, but I hope to emphasize it by reading it slowly.

But God forbid that l should: glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision,

and I ... dear brethren this is, mark there please, this is the New Testament emphasis upon a new order of people that are emerging. We learn

neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but


a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule,

what rule? Disregarding natural birth as a qualification for anything spiritually. Natural birth, gives you no recognition in the sight of God Almighty today. It did in the Old Testament, but today it does not. It's faith in Christ that gives us standing today before God Almighty. So that

as many as walk according to this rule,

what rule? Recognizing that a new creature is the only thing that God recognizes today.

peace be on them, and mercy, and upon,

mark you,

the Israel of God.

Now brethren if we would just pause a minute to fathom the meaning of the apostle here, it would do us all good. He is not talking about the natural Jew, the natural Israelite here, he's talking about the new creature who is not made such either by circumcision or uncircumcision. He is talking about a new creature who is made such by faith in Jesus Christ. So therefore we read in 2 Corinthians 5:17, "he that is in Christ is a new creature", or new creation, "old things pass away, behold everything becomes new". That's the rule that God uses today. Not any earthly rule, not any fleshly rule, it is a spiritual rule. Children of God made possible by faith in Jesus Christ.

and mercy upon the Israel of God.

Now turn please to 1 Peter the 2nd chapter, 1 Peter the 2nd chapter verses 9 (chapter 2) ... verses 9 and 10, chapter 2 verses 9 and 10.  I could read the whole chapter but it may weary you, but this book is very precious; this is a very precious chapter, but anyway. Now speaking to Christians, to Christians ... we all understand that I'm sure.

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation,

this is the Christian now collectively, this is the Christian now collectively,

a peculiar people; that ye should  shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light: which in time past,

mark you, we were all Gentiles you see, we were of the uncircumcision, but we did not obtain anything by being the uncircumcision, but what we have, Peter's telling us, we have because we have accepted Jesus Christ as Savior. So therefore,

which in time past were not a people,

that means were not recognized by God, you see,

were not a people, but now are,

and I wish you'd underscore it (if I shout a little bit it's only because it makes me glad, and I hope it makes you glad too dear brethren; this is the essence of joy),

but now are the people of God.

They're the only people of God that God Almighty recognizes today. And anybody who perpetuates anything that's merely natural is violating the rule of God Almighty, which the apostle Paul lifted up. Violating it no matter how sincere he may be, he violates the rule of God. All right,

which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy,

you see. Therefore,

Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts,

and so on. That's not the verse I wish to read however.

But I think I'll stop here. The next section in my outline will concern itself that l would show this that faith in the Lord Jesus Christ produces a new being and through that new being (carry on the idea a little further) a new people, who are called the people of God, who are not a nation as such but now are a holy people of God, who are not a nation as such, but now are a holy nation, a peculiar people, are the people of God. So if I stop a few minutes earlier, I think that will be fine now because I have this new section that I may take up a little later.

Brother Johnson, I don't know how to express myself. It's a joy to see you. I've often wondered where you were and what the Lord was doing with you and how you were fairing spiritually and I want to tell you dear brethren it's a joy to see you again after ... how many years?

MMJ: Thirty years.

Kempin: Thirty years.

MMJ: Right at thirty, right at thirty.

Kempin: Once again, I'm very happy to see you.

MMJ:  I wouldn't be here if I wasn't glad to see you because I knew you were going to be here. I'm glad to be here certainly.

I'd like to read first 2 Peter the last chapter, remembering the passage brother Kempin read from 1 Peter 2 and Peter's statement there and see what Peter himself says here that will lead us on farther in the development of the doctrine of God for this present dispensation. He says ...

Kempin: ... What verse do you read?

MMJ: 2 Peter 3:14,

Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the long-suffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord,

he referred to that awhile ago, that passage there, growing

in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

I think that the essential difference between brother Kempin's doctrine on the covenants and Israel and what I believe to be the truth is, you might say, pinpointed in what I think Peter had in mind here. What the apostle Paul was given and the wisdom God gave him to give that Peter was not given to pass on, as Paul says in Romans 11:13, "I, the apostle to the Gentiles, magnify my office", not a apostle, not an apostle, but the,  "I, the apostle to the Gentiles, magnify my office".

Now personally I believe here in 1 Peter 2 Peter isn't referring to the Gentiles who are now a people but Israel in their rebellion and having been conquered, with God's permission, the Babylonians, Nebuchadnezzar, and so forth, they lost their national standing and were under the terrible disciplinary judgment of God. Peter, in writing his first epistle, isn't writing to Gentile Christians as such, he's writing to the strangers scattered abroad. Well, the Gentiles were living abroad already.

And not only that, but turn to Galatians the 2nd chapter and let's see if we cannot get very definitely what along with Peter's statement in his valedictory, you might say, the final words: from him we just read, 2 Peter 3. He undoubtedly backs off, bows off the stage in favor of Paul so far as God's program for this age.

Kempin: What passage, brother Johnson?

MMJ:  Beg your pardon?

Kempin:  What passage?

MMJ:  Well I'm referring to ... I just referred there to 2 Peter 3, and now Galatians 2, now Galatians 2, where Paul says he went up by revelation to Jerusalem.

I won't take time to read it all but get only the things I want to bring out immediately, Galatians  2:6.  Now Paul is in Jerusalem at the time now to which he's referring.

But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person: for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me.

Now let's remember that the apostle Paul was an unsaved Jew all during the time Christ was on the earth, at the time He chose His twelve apostles including Peter, of course. Paul was Saul of Tarsus, an unsaved Jew. During the thirty and three years of Christ's earthly ministry when He had the apostles with Him and commissioned them to go out and preach that the kingdom of God's at hand and empowered them to perform miracles as credentials authenticating their message as being from God, "The kingdom of God's at hand. Heal the sick, cast out demons, raise the dead, freely ye have received, freely give. Go not in the way of the Gentiles, into the city of the Samaritans enter ye not but go right up to the lost sheep of the house of Israel", Matthew 10th chapter. Then in Matthew 15:24 we find the Lord Jesus saying, "I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel".

Now during that time, I repeat, Saul of Tarsus was unsaved. Christ was crucified, buried, risen, and appeared to the twelve apostles, Judas having already hanged himself and another replace him and was with them forty days we'll read directly from Luke 24 and Acts 1. The risen Christ being with the apostles, not Paul, Paul was still an unsaved Jew, was with the apostles forty days, the risen Christ with the apostles forty days speaking to them of things pertaining to the kingdom of God, having opened their understanding we read in the 24th chapter of Luke, the risen Christ opened their understanding that they might understand the Scriptures. And He spoke to them for forty days out of the Hebrew Scriptures, because they were the only Scriptures in existence then, spoke to them out of the Scriptures for forty days speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God. We'll go back and read that directly probably, in Acts the 1st chapter. I've just referred to  it because I want to bring it in here.

Well when was Saul of Tarsus saved? So far as I know, about seven years after the church which is Christ's body historically began, for I believe it started at Pentecost (as I believe he does too, with the baptism of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost). And Peter, probably the leader of the twelve Jewish apostles at least so far as the prominence given him (I agree with the Roman Catholics that Peter was probably the most prominent of the twelve) but not in comparison with Paul.

Anyway, Peter was the one chosen to preach the first sermon you remember after the resurrection, ascension of Christ and descent of the Holy Spirit. And the second recorded sermon, and the first to go to the Gentiles remember as recorded in the 10th chapter. So Peter's a very prominent man in God's program in the baby days of the church. But notice now, Galatians the 2nd chapter, notice Paul says those

who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me: But,

exactly the opposite,

contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision,

in Ephesians the 2nd chapter we're told specifically there that the word 'circumcision' refers to Jews and 'uncircumcision' to Gentiles. Well the context will make it plain that's what's happening here too.

The twelve apostles, Peter, James, and John for instance, who were with the Lord Jesus during His entire earthly ministry, eyewitnesses of His death, burial, and resurrection, with Him during His forty days of His resurrection ministry on earth, eyewitnesses of His ascension (with Him on the Mount of Transfiguration, yes Peter, James, and John, and with Him on the Mount of Olives when He gave them their commission (so-called Great by man), Matthew 28 and Mark 16, Saul was still an unsaved Jew. But now Saul has been saved, years later and he goes up to Jerusalem by revelation we read in Galatians 2:1-2. The Lord wanted him to go up there, to go to school to those who were apostles of Christ during His earthly ministry?

No. Exactly opposite. He said, "They didn't give me a thing, but contrariwise I gave them something". Now to me that's a most important thing, just a touch of the truth I've touched before in the last few verses of 2 Peter, "Our beloved brother Paul gave some things which are hard to be understood according to the wisdom given him, things which are hard to be understood which they that are unlearned and ignorant wrest to their own destruction as they do the other scriptures". And then I quoted Romans 11:13 where Paul said, "I, the apostle to the Gentiles," magnify my office". Now continue please in Galatians 2.  I'll start in the 6th verse again.

But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me: But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the

Jew or

circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles) And when James, Cephas,

or Peter,

and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we, should go unto the heathen;

or Gentiles,

and they unto the  circumcision.

That's one of the verses that I use to prove that so far as the Word of God is concerned that Peter never went to Rome because Rome certainly wasn't the headquarters for Jews. It was the capitol of the Gentile empire. And since Peter here ... we find Peter and John and James were going to the circumcision and Paul and Barnabas going to the Gentiles. Well I'm sure this is one suggestion that Peter never went to Rome to be the leader there, never went to Rome to be the leader there.

Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do. But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles.

In other words, we read from Acts 15 that he was the first one that received the divine revelation that God... was beginning a new thing with the Gentiles. Peter was the first one, and God gave that revelation we know from Acts the 10th chapter and Acts the 15th chapter on the subject.

Then brother Kempin read when

Ye who are Jews by nature,

Paul referring to Peter, "When we who are Jews by nature, live as do the Gentiles., why are you trying to put Judaism on these Gentile Christians?" and so forth.

Now on over to Galatians the 6th chapter, since were here in Galatians (and brother Kempin read there). And I think again, brother Kempin, here is one of your, shall I say, essential mistakes; essential to the doctrine, your doctrine, of what is the kingdom of God and who [is] Israel today and what people the New Covenant [is] for.  I think this right here, your failure to observe the preposition 'and'. Because it's here and it's here for a purpose and I think it is very significant in light of other scriptures, in light of the 2nd chapter, part of which we just read. Well now let's look at it, Galatians 6:16.

And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Now we've got to get the scope of the book in order to appreciate what he's saying here in closing of this letter. What is the scope of this epistle to the Galatians? What kind of people in Galatia? The context of the book will make it very evident to a careful reader that these are- almost altogether Gentiles in Galatia. Telling the Gentile believers in Galatia to not let the Jewish teachers put Judaism on them. So he closes by saying, now as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and, since there's some Christian Jews in Galatia, who in all probability are still practicing Judaism exactly like Paul was at this time. For up to this time and later than this time, by a careful comparing of this book and so on with Acts the 16th chapter where in the 3rd verse where we had Paul having Timothy circumcised because his father was a Greek, mother and grandmother Jewesses we read in Timothy's epistle. But     ?       circumcised and were told there Paul had him circumcised because of the Jews. He was going to take Timothy (and we know he did later), take Timothy as one of his most valued assistants, helpers, as he said in Philippians, "I have no man like Timothy", so on. All right, in the early part of Galatians 2 (Iíll just read it), we find that when he went up to Jerusalem he took Titus with him. And they tried to make Titus get circumcised and Paul said, "I didn't submit to them, not for one moment, not for one hour, that the truth of the gospel".

What's the difference? Titus is a Gentile. Titus is a Gentile. But here's a half-Jew Timothy who at the time appeared in the early church, I think covered in the book of Acts in which time the epistle to the Galatians was written, we find Paul as he says in 1 Corinthians 9:19-23, "Though I'm free from all men, yet have I made myself servant to all, those that are Jew I became as a Jew", went back and practiced Judaism. Because brother Kempin read, and I just reread in Galatians 2, that Paul said to Peter, "Why we were Jews by nature". And Paul said, "I was a member of the tribe of the Pharisees: (sic), of the straightest sect of the Pharisees, and I profited above many of mine equals in the Jews religion", Galatians ?. But he said, "I'm free from all men", he's learned the truth that in Christ now there's neither Jew nor Gentile.

Incidentally, I may not get time now, but I want to use that with the passage you read from Galatians 2. Brother Kempin, you shouldn't make that mistake of reading there, "He is a Jew who is one inwardly" and then go over (as you did), go over a few minutes later and read "In Christ, there's neither Jew nor Gentile". So everyone whose a Jew; that you said we are today, we're Jews according to Romans 2, then we're out of Christ because in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile.

Is that the scope of Galatians 2, I mean Romans 2 and go right on into Romans 3? You will find that Paul in Romans 2 as a prosecuting attorney divinely inspired is first making a case in the 1st chapter of Romans, the last half, he made a case against the Gentile pagan believers and proved that because they had sinned against light that God gave them by the things created they were without excuse and God gave them up. So he prosecutes them with the divinely given authority and truth. He prosecutes them, says they are without excuse, and God gave them up, and they're reprobates, and so forth.

Now what about you Jews? Well you were given the oracles of God, but a little bit before the passage he read that he is not a Jew who is one outwardly but he's a Jew whose one inwardly, but before that Paul argues there in that 2nd chapter, he said, "Now you that say, "Thou shalt not kill", you were given the commandments, the ten commandments, the oracles. of God. Now you who say, "Thou shalt not kill", do you kill? "Thou shalt not commit adultery", you teach that. Do you do it? He said, "Not the hearers of the law are just before God but the doers of the law shall be just"." and then he goes right down the line. And he says circumcision isn't of any value. Had you read the next three verses in the 3rd chapter you'd find that Paul says circumcision verily profiteth if you keep the law. There he's talking about physical circumcision because he's dealing there with flesh and blood Israel in the 2nd chapter. "What advantage then hath the Jew? Much every way, for to him were committed the oracles of God." What kind of Jews received the oracles of God? Flesh and blood Jews. Just like Paul said, "Peter, you and I are Jews by nature", but he says you're not a Jew who'll be acceptable to God merely because you are naturally a Jew and received the oracles of God. You've got to keep them to be an acceptable Jew which would be a Jew inwardly.

Then, brother Kempin I'm sure there never has been but one inward Jew on earth, never but one, Jesus of Nazareth. He was an outward Jew as to His flesh, you read awhile ago from Romans the 9th chapter in the early part of your talk (I don't think you went on down and read that passage, not that you deliberately avoided it), I think the next verse from where you stopped would have said Christ concerning the flesh was an Israelite. In the 2nd chapter of Acts we're told He was to come from the loins of David. Well that would make Him of the tribe of Judah, and we know He was. So." I repeat, I believe Jesus of Nazareth, the Lord on earth, I believe He was the only inward Jew that ever lived because He kept the Ten Commandments, He kept the Ten Commandments. Now, back to Galatians 6:16.

As many as walk according to this rule,

I was quoting from 1 Corinthians 9 wasn't I, 9:19-26, Paul said, "though I'm free from all men", in other words, while God left the temple in Jerusalem still standing and the message was to Jew first, the gospel of personal salvation was to Jew first and notice Paul's manner of walk in those days, "Though I'm free from all men, yet have I made myself servant to all, those that are Jews I became as a Jew, to those that are under the law as under the law, to those without the law without the law yet not without the law to God" of course, "to the weak I became weak. I am made all things to all men that I might by all means save some".

Now, what did he do after he established the church at Corinth? We read in Acts 18:18 after he left Corinth he stopped in the neighboring city of Cenchrea and had his head shaved with a Jewish vow. He was practicing Judaism. During that period of course God was dealing with the Jews as Jews during the book of Acts period giving them another opportunity to receive Jesus: as the Redeemer, Messiah, Son of David, King during that period. And so Paul practiced Judaism during all that period. When he got to Jerusalem as we read in Acts 21st chapter ....maybe I won't take time to read that now because ... how much time have I taken?

John Morey: You have four and a half minutes left.

MMJ: But now again the epistle to the Galatians, Paul has been giving of course divine inspired truth rebuking the Gentile Christians in Galatia who had accepted some Judaism from some Judaizing teachers that had followed him after he had got to Galatia, they came backtracking or tracking him and stirring the people up by trying to make them take on Judaism. And he said, "Why if you become circumcised Christ is become of none effect to you". Well that's not what he said to Timothy. He had Timothy circumcised, Acts 16:3. Now we've got to rightly divide. As we read in 1 Corinthians 10:32, "Give none offense neither to the Jew, nor to the Gentile, nor to the church of God".

Now I won't have time but to just refer, but I may take more time later in another speech to what you gave about the seed of Abraham. Brother Kempin, it is, very clearly taught in the Word of God that Isaac was a seed of Abraham; he is so called. But he was not the seed referred to in Galatians 3. But Isaac was a promised seed, just as much flesh and blood as Jacob, just as much flesh and blood as Ishmael, but he was a seed, a son of promise, Romans 9. But not the same son of promise that we Gentile believers are, according to Galatians 3. We are children of Abraham by faith in Jesus Christ. Isaac was a promised seed of Abraham because of Abraham's faith that God was going to give him a son, seed so far as Abraham's concerned (a seed of Abraham too).

Now faith in Isaac, in his death, would never save any of us, but faith in this other seed of Abraham, Jesus Christ and His death, burial, and resurrection saves us and makes us children of Abraham in the spiritual family. Abraham was the father of Ishmael, and God promised to bless Ishmael remember when Hagar came weeping and said, "What have I got" and so forth. God promised to bless Ishmael though he was a son of the flesh in the ugly sense of the term, but Ishmael wasn't anymore flesh and blood than Isaac was. But Ishmael was the son of flesh born, conceived illegitimately with a hand-maid, so forth, against the comments of God that  "I'm going to give you a seed through your wife Sarah". Abraham and Sarah tried to help God out you know, Sarah said, "I can't be a mother, so you go in unto Hagar". Well a son was born and God promised to bless that son of Abraham, Ishmael.

Isaac was a son of Abraham and the son of promise, and God promised to bless Isaac. And did He bless Isaac? and Isaac's son Jacob? and Jacob's children flesh and blood Israel? Was David from God, of and blessed of God? Of course he was. And Solomon and so forth. Flesh and blood.

Well Abraham had another son, another seed Jesus Christ, and He's distinct of course and unique, the seed referred to in Galatians 3.

Well what about you and me?  We're children of Abraham too.

So Abraham is the father of at least four separate and distinct children: Ishmael, Isaac, Jesus Christ after the flesh, and every Christian today. That's clearly, I'm sure, very clearly brought out by the Word of God and we need to observe those distinctions or we'll have a great deal of confusion.

Now I believe that in Galatians 6:16 when Paul said, "As many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them." What rule? The rule: don't you Gentile believers take on any Judaism at all. That was settled at the conference at Jerusalem, Acts 15. Don't you Gentile Christians take on any Judaism. "And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them",  but to Jewish believers they were still practicing Judaism as Paul was, "and peace on the Israel of God". Two classes of believers in Galatia at the time Paul wrote. The Christian Jew ... the Christian Gentile don't take on any Judaism, the Christian Jew still practicing Judaism as Paul did, as I called to your attention in several different passages.

Well it's about time I think ...

Kempin: So now, I want to point out, this is the caption for this moment, the next 20 minutes, that faith in the Lord Jesus Christ produces a new being, and through that new being a new people. I want you to be aware of that statement and I wish you'd write it down. I hope the recorder will keep it indelibly fixed that faith in Jesus Christ produces a new creature and through that new creature a new people, a new order of individuals in this world. All right, let's see how this works out.

We'll start with very familiar passages first. Turn to John 3 verses 3-7. I think anytime brother Johnson and I don't finish reading any passage (like you indicated) it's not a deliberate omission, I simply have stopped to utilize the time to pick out only certain portions. I could read a whole chapter for example. I never avoid any portion of God's Word because all of it's precious, but I confine myself to certain verses only because of haste at this present moment, these verses apply. And so I never evade anything that's given in the Word of God, believe me dear brethren.

So here, verse 3 on, a very familiar passage. We'll start here with this,

Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I stay unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus with unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee,

that is Nicodemus,

Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

He was a Jew, he was a member of the Sanhedrin, remember that "He cannot enter into the kingdom of God". If a Jew could have seen the kingdom of God by keeping the law, Jesus never would have said that to Nicodemus. He could not see the kingdom of God without the new birth, Listen to this now brethren, this is not I speaking, but the Lord speaking here,

Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, l say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

With all of his legal training and adhesion to the low of Moses, had not yet been born again, had not entered the kingdom of God, no matter how much he professed, Jesus said he had not, and l believe Him.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is. born of, the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must he born again.

That's a universal truth.


or you,

must be born again.

To every person, whether he's a Jew or Gentile, mark you.

All right, then we read in 1 Peter chapter 1 verse 23. You will then please turn to that, verse 23.

Being born again, not of corruptible seed,

this is in contrast to the seed of man which is corruptible. Not ...

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the ...

1 Peter chapter 1 verse 23 I'm reading,

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

This is the agency which God uses to effect the new birth, the Word of God itself lodged within the human spirit. That produces a birth, it is called a spiritual birth.

1 John chapter 5 verse 1 if you please, 1 John chapter 5 verse 1.

Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that beget loveth him also that is begotten of him.

That's the definition of John.

Now turn to 2 Corinthians chapter 5 please brethren, 2 Corinthians chapter 5 verses 16 and 17. "This is something we all ought to take to heart, because there's a principle that Paul is expounding through all the letters concerning a new order. Chapter 5, 2 Corinthians verses 16 and 17,

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh,

that's a positive statement to be found in Paul, Anybody that perpetuates any order according to the flesh does not see the new order that God has made possible through Christ the Lord,

yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh,

certainly Jesus was a Jew, I never deny it nor anyone else with any sense would deny that Jesus was not a Jew. He was a Jew, who would deny the fact? He was born of the seed of Abraham; the seed was one, Christ. That's the only important seed. Any other confusion ... entering into any other application of Paul's statement adds to confusion. It doesn't clarify, it adds confusion. The spotlight of Paul was on Christ! not on Isaac, not on Ishmael, not on anybody else; on Christ, my dear brethren, He is the focal point of the prophecy. Indeed He is.

So we have known Christ after the flesh, yes,

yet now henceforth know we him no more,

not even Jesus Christ. Though we think of Him as a Jew, not anymore. If anybody wants to, let him do it, but Paul says not to and I choose to stand with Paul, I look to Jesus Christ now as the risen glorified Christ Who's eternal, Who is not a Jew as such, He is the glorified risen Redeemer of the world. That's what He is. All right,

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature,

what is he? Still a Jew? Am I a Gentile looked upon as such by God Almighty?  No!  I am a new creation, a new creation, I am a Christian if you please. I am a power of Christ, I am a child of God by faith in Jesus Christ,

a new creature: old things are passed away,

the old order is done. I'm done with the old order, the old order of the Jewish dispensation, the old order of sectarianism (to me that's old), I am in a new order, the order of God by faith in Jesus Christ,

all things are become new,

that's the New Testament. I'm in the New Testament, I have no part ... only in the sense that we learn. All these things were written for our encouragement, for our inspiration Paul says in one place and we can learn from them for our admonition and so on like that. Everything is become new.  All things are of God, who hath reconciled to himself, hath reconciled us to himself.

When the plural pronoun 'us' is used, brethren please remember it always refers to believing Jew and believing Gentiles, always does, see, the 'us',

hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation.

We are to declare this fact that God Almighty wants all to bow to His Son Jesus Christ the Lord. Jews first, Gentiles next. And as they accept Jesus Christ, a new order emerges, and that's the church, the new Israel of God.

All I say to dear brother Johnson's close is, please brethren examine that expression by Paul, "the blessings of God upon the Israel of God".  Examine it in the light of the New Testament. What does Paul mean? What is he doing? What is he saying? Just exactly, and that's all I can say concerning that fact here.  2 Corinthians 5:16-17.  I've said.

Galatians 6 please now verse 15, Galatians 6 verse 15,

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything,

see, the Jewish order which I have said was old, which is done away with, a new order emerges in Christ. For in Christ

neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

How is that creature made possible, that new creature? By the new birth. Jesus said it to a Jew, if you please, a fleshly Jew. If the keeping of the law could have made that new creature, then the Lord would have said so. But He said to this man who is keeping the law, "You must he born again". And so that new creature is a product not of adhesion to the Mosaic law, but that new creature is made possible by faith in Jesus Christ; he becomes a new creature.

And as many as walk according to this rule,

I repeat again for all of our sakes, "this rule", what rule? but a new creature is now demanded of God Almighty. You can't trust in the flesh whether Jew or Gentile, you must trust in Jesus Christ.

And as many as walk according to this rule,

that rule of being born again, that's it. The blessings of God come upon them,

peace be on them, and,

the conjunction 'and' refers to all who have done that, who become new creatures. I'll give you that brethren, I've no argument to advance, no point of issue, but consider this, that's all, Consider it. That conjunction points to the fusion of two warring classes in this world: the Jews and the Gentiles, each one against the other. They are made one in Christ only, nothing else will effect that oneness.

Let us read Romans 9 if you please brothers and sisters, verses 22 and 26, and I preface this portion of the Word of God by saying that Romans 9, 10, and 11 are among the most difficult chapters of what we call the New Testament literature; they are the most difficult to understand. And so, I offer this comment as I read only very humbly and I simply stay I'll pose this: consider what I say and the Lord give us all understanding. I'm not saying that I have the last word on anything, see. But I'm sharing with you what the Lord has helped me to see this far.

If it is the truth, that truth will judge you. I'm not asking you to take my view, or anybody else's view, I'm asking you to take the Word of God, that's going to judge us at the last day brethren, see, So therefore it's very profitable that we heed this injunction and listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit as we reason together from the Word of God and around the Word of God.

What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much long-suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.

Who are they? Who are these vessels of wrath that have fitted themselves to destruction? I challenge you to examine Romans, Galatians, and Hebrews, those three books, they are the books that answer the question. These vessels of wrath are unbelievers, unbelievers, of what kind? In this instance, Paul levels by inspiration his judgment and the judgment of God against unbelieving Jews. Unbelieving Jews are the vessels of wrath that fit themselves for destruction. Listen,

And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy,

who are the vessels of mercy? Like I said, the vessels of wrath are unbelievers, the vessels of mercy are believers, both of Jews and Gentiles. Believers,

which he had afore prepared unto glory. Even us,

and I say again brethren, when the plural pronoun is used by Paul, he's speaking of that new creation in Christ where the believing Jew loses his identity and the believing Gentile loses his identity and they become new creatures in Christ. That is the use of the plural pronoun 'us',

Even us, whom he hath called,

and Paul clarifies it to show you that I'm on the right track,

not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?    

see, but

as he saith also in Hosea, I will call them my people,

mark it, "my people". Who is He going to call "my people"?  Those who were Gentiles who had refused to believe, but now take the point of belief. They were not a people, you see,

I will call ... Ye are not my people,

see, that as Gentiles, the unbelieving Gentiles in this world, now those who believe become what?

there shall they be called the children of the living God.

There's no answer against that scripture. Anybody that flies in the face of the Scripture with any other comment or rationalization or interpretation other than Paul gives ... it's so plain, you don't need any other comment. This is the Word of God brethren, so therefore the genius is this: there are Jews that do not believe, there are Gentiles who do not believe, all such, whether Jews or Gentiles, are vessels of wrath who fit themselves toward destruction, those who believe from among the Jews and the Gentiles become vessels of mercy. And those who were unbelievers among the Gentiles where God did not go ... that's true, though God says. they went to Jews first, they didn't want to go to Gentiles. But only because the Jews rejected the Lord Jesus Christ and did not build upon the foundation which God had laid down for the kingdom of God (which was Jesus Christ Himself), rejecting that cornerstone, see, He rejected them, and built upon that cornerstone the New Testament church, which is the church of God, church of Christ, the body of Christ, the sheepfold, the kingdom of God, the new Israel if you please. Examine that word in that light.

All right now, let us read Ephesians 1 verse 5, if you please dear brethren, Ephesians 1 verse 5. l don't know whether you're a Calvinist or what, but I'm not either as a Calvinist or as an Arminian. You know what I mean that don't you, where there are those who believe in predestination that God foreordained some to be lost and some to be saved, and regardless of what they wish to do about their salvation, those who are predestined to he lost can never be saved and those who are predestined to be saved can do nothing to be lost, they'll be saved in spite of whatever they do or wish. But this predestination, this whole thing of predestination I meant to say as a great theme simply means this in God's economy. God had an eternal purpose, an eternal purpose. We quote too loosely Romans 8:28, as a salve, as a sort of something to rub on the outside and a cure-all for everything that happens in this world. Here it is, "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love the Lord who are... "." period, we need to put the period. The average Christian and the average Bible reader, period, he forgets the rest, "who are the called according to his purpose". That is the key point of this verse, Romans 8:28. What is the purpose of God Almighty? To save the whole world by faith in Jesus Christ, you see. Genesis 12:1-2 brings that out where God said, "In Abraham shall thy seed be called", and through Abraham shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, you see. So therefore this is Godís holy purpose to save all mankind, but He selected the Jew to usher in Jesus Christ into the world. However the Jewish people disappointed the Lord, but Christ did come. So therefore we read the law was added, remember that, the law was added because of transgression till the seed should come, then it should be removed. It was an added thing, and like I quoted Johnny and Kenny, anything that's added can be removed. By whom? By me? No. By the one who added it, see, that's how.

So therefore, we read on in Ephesians 1:5,

Having predestinated,

this is not an individual predestination. Always remember that when Paul speaks of predestination, it's not an individual thing where He predestinated you to be saved and some to be lost, but He predestinated the Gentiles to come to His mercy. That doesn't mean all the Gentiles will be saved any more than all the Jews will be saved, but the Gentiles will have a chance to he saved. That's what he means. And so therefore,

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

Then Ephesians 2 verses 13-16, I shall read that passage yet, Ephesians 2:13-16,

But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ,

that was unbelieving Gentiles now here,

For he is our peace, who path made both,

you see the argument of Paul is always this: there are unbelieving Jews, unbelieving Gentiles, they are drawing on each other trying to find a way out, but the way out is not any man made way, it is God's ordained way. What is it? It's Christ,

Who said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life". So therefore,

he is our peace, who hath made both one, and path broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments,


even the law of commandments contained in ordinances,

that was an enemy,

even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain,

of twain, how, by natural process? No. By the process of the new birth, which I've expounded. Make

of twain one new man,

that one new man is Israel, the new Israel of God. If you haven't seen it yet brethren, take that thought, let it work in you like leaven. This is the    ?      of the New Testament.   A new order of being emerges: it is the New Testament of God Almighty.

one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God,

both Jews And Gentiles,

unto God in one body,

that's the New Covenant,

in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby.

Then I'll read Ephesians 2:19-22 if you please, then I'll quit dear brethren, 19 and 20,

Now therefore ye are no. more strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens with the saints,

that's to the believing Gentiles if you please,

and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are budded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

And I want to read if I may ... Johnny, do I have time to read two more verses.? All right from 2 Peter. This is important to show you that the Jewish people violated all that they should have observed, and rejected the Lord Jesus Christ. And so therefore their observance of the law has nothing to do with salvation, for if the law could save anybody it should have been perpetuated. But it could not, it's only faith in Christ that saves. Here now, listen to this,

Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Zion,

yes sir, it began there,

in Zion a chief corner stone, elect, precious, and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious but unto them,

mark you,

but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed,

who are they? They're the unbelieving Jews. The unbelieving Jews disallowed that stone, rejected that stone,

which the builders: disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are a chosen generation,

see, the "ye" is the believers both of Jews and Gentiles.

Now I think I better stop before I go on.

John Morey: I didn't stop brother Kempin at ten minutes because I didn't think it would be fair and he went ahead and took about 22 minutes.

MMJ:  Let the Word rightly divided decide, and of course it will we know in the final analysis. Let's turn please to Romans the 9th chapter, and I'll read a little bit that brother Kempin read and then a little more. You notice I said awhile ago that he didn't read the next verse, after the actual verse where he stopped. You notice I was very careful to say that I don't say he deliberately did it. I'm not accusing him. But when I notice if he'd gone another verse in one case, It would have been very helpful, Then l want to go to the next verse, you see.

He read Romans 9:25-26. Now his effort here was to prove this was referring to Gentiles who are not God's people Israel, and who were made God's people.

As he saith also in Hosea, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

You remember he went quite vehemently on that and then went to another passage. I'd like to read the next verse,

Isaiah also crieth concerning Israel,

not the Gentiles, but concerning the people who Paul had been speaking of above, in Hosea,

Isaiah also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the stand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work,

and so on. Now I could have gone on and read the whole chapter ... and by the way, l was very much interested to hear brother Kempin say, although I'm not at all surprised to hear it, him say it, that the 9th, 10th, and 11th chapters of Romans are very, very difficult, hard to be understood. They're impossible for you to understand brother Kempin with your assumption that the church is Israel. They're impossible for you to understand; but I'm glad that you made that admission, and made it here publicly. I'll read some directly from the 10th ... well right on down. The chapter divisions are man-made, as we probably know, they're not of God. Where they help it's all right, where they don't we have to be careful, We have to see where there's a break in the thought. Look at the 33rd verse,

As it is written, Behold I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is ...

Now mind you this is long after the church began. This is long after, according to brother Kempin, God is through with the Jew as Jew, through with Israel flesh and blood as Israel, and had begun a new Israel, He was through with the old entirely, and got a new Israel, And here we know, prays years after the church began, as I went over awhile ago. But here's the great apostle to the Gentiles saying this,

Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

Now if Israel at this time; what God called Israel at this time, was the church of God, then this is only confusing, this is only confusing.

Now he spoke a moment ago that God's focal point isn't on Abraham's seed Ishmael or Abraham's seed Isaac, but it's on Abraham's seed Christ, and he waxed on that to some extent. Now I agree with that 100% except that we mustn't belittle the fact that God did focus some points on Isaac. See, I was reading from the Word of God on that, referred to the Word of God on that subject. And if we don't let God focus wherever He wants to and learn what God wants us to learn when He's focusing attention to Ishmael, then we'll be heady, high-minded. Unless we let God focus His attention on Abraham's promised seed Isaac and see how Isaac came. There's a whole lot said about how Isaac came; there's a whole lot said about how Isaac was promised and how he came, and why it was important, and so forth, way on over in James the 2nd chapter. We're given a test of Abraham's true faith, what he did to Isaac, so forth.

But anyway, now right here in Romans 10,

Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is,

now you suppose the Christians at Rome at this time when they read that thought he was talking about the spiritual Israel? If he did, he did something terrible,

my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Now in the 11th chapter he goes on and adds evidence of course to the subject of God's purpose for flesh and blood Israel, flesh and blood Israel.

But now turn back please to Acts the 2nd chapter and brother Kempin was as positive and fervent on this as on anything that he gave awhile ago. I want to help him and you to see what he overlooked. He quoted from 2 Corinthians 5:16-17. He quoted the last part, but anyway, "Henceforth know we no man after the flesh, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet henceforth know we him no more'. And he emphasized that we don't know Christ anymore as a Jew. He was a Jew of course, and I didn't accuse him of saying Christ wasn't a Jew, but he said we don't know Him anymore after the flesh. And of course, for him, he meant never will anybody know Him anymore after the flesh. And he quoted from Acts the 2nd chapter. Now, I believe that mind you, 2 Corinthians 5:16-17. If I have a hobby verse, it's the two verses 2 Corinthians 5:16-17. I believe that so surely brother Kempin that I don't know anybody anymore where they'd been baptized in water. Because I'm quite sure that's flesh, flesh. And I gave up water baptism, 33, -4 years ago. I gave up the physical New Covenant supper because I believe 2 Corinthians 5:16-17 for this dispensation. And by the fruit shall ye know, and when you're new creatures in Christ ... we knew Christ after the flesh Paul said. He was born of a Jewish virgin and circumcised as an eight day old Jewish baby boy according to the law and according to the record, Luke 2:21. And He came not to destroy the law but to fulfill it, the Mosaic economy. And He kept it every bit, every jot and tittle. We've known Christ ... Paul said in Romans 15:8, "Now I say unto you that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision," but He's not now    ?     circumcision. But is nobody ever going to know Him after the flesh anymore? Let's see, Acts the 2nd chapter. Acts the 2nd chapter, and begin at the 13th verse.

I'd like to read it all. It has to do with Peter's inspired message about the prophecy concerning the son of David that God was going to give David a son and he was going to sit on his throne. Now brother Kempin believes that Christ is now seated on the throne of David as the king over spiritual Israel, Let's look here in Acts the 2nd chapter, and the 29th verse. Peter's preaching, by divine inspiration,

Men and brethren,

speaking to the Jews of course, they're the only ones to whom he addressed in Acts 2, anyway they were Jews in religion, some of them may have been proselytes, but he was speaking to men of Israel, He refers to them that way in the early part of this, "Ye men of Israel".

Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne.

Now brother Kempin cannot believe that literally and hold to his position that the church is spiritual Israel and that Christ is now sitting on the throne of David. Because he quoted 2 Corinthians 5:17 and emphasized, "Hence forth we don't know Christ anymore after the flesh". We don't know Him as a Jew anymore, and to him, never will. According to this when Christ sits on the throne of David it will be the Son of David according to the flesh, it will be the Son of David according to the flesh that will sit on the throne. So brother Kempin, obey 2 Timothy 2:15 in rightly dividing between knowing Christ after the flesh in this present dispensation and knowing Christ after the flesh in the future when He's going to sit on the throne of David as one that was promised He would and was raised up from the loins of David according to the flesh. It doesn't need to be any plainer does it because it's plain. Yes, the Lord Jesus Christ is again going to be with flesh and blood Israel, Romans the 9th chapter, Romans the 10th chapter, Romans the 11th chapter, Paul said ? , "Hath God cast away His people whom He foreknew? God forbid.  I'm an Israelite". Well was he talking about a new creature Israelite there? He said, "I'm an Israelite. I'm of the tribe of Benjamin." He was identifying himself as one of the tribes of Benjamin Israel, just as he did in the passage he quoted first from Galatians 2 (1 repeated it), in Galatians 2 where Paul said to Peter, "We who are Jews by nature".

All right, I believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is going to again come back to earth.  He hasn't touched the kingdom and I'm not going to.  We of course have to consider brother and sister Morey as to how long were going to continue tonight, but I hope we can have another time God willing, brother ... more than another time.  I wish we could have a series of discussions together which might be much more profitable to those who would profit by it.

Kempin: The question is: Who is the New Testament Israel of God?

MMJ:  0n what brother Kempin said beginning with the 3rd chapter of John, "Ye must be born again", I believe unreservedly without any hesitancy with joy, I believe you must be born again to see the kingdom of God, but I do not believe that that is a New Testament truth. Because I believe the Lord Jesus Christ said Abraham is going to sit down in the kingdom, Abraham's going to sit down in the kingdom, and Abraham didn't have a so-called "New Testament" new birth. But Abraham did believe in the coming of his seed, the great-great-great-great-grandson, Jesus Christ the Lord from heaven as we're told in Galatians 3, "Abraham believed", and also John 8:56, "Rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad".

So the plan of personal salvation since Abraham's time is not New Covenant, the New Covenant has to do with national, exactly like the Old Covenant. God made the Old Covenant with Israel and Judah when He took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, so we're told in Jeremiah 31 and quoted in Hebrews 8.

Now back to John 3:3. I believe you must be born again to see the kingdom of God. And I believe that when one is born again he is a new creature in Christ in this present dispensation described there in 2 Corinthians 5:17. But when you come to the thing born again is church truth, I do not believe that at all, For instance the Lord Jesus said as recorded ... remember what I gave, 2 Peter, the very last thing about Peter saying brother Paul according to the wisdom given unto him has some things to say and all his epistles are hard to be understood and so forth? Now the Lord Jesus said as recorded in the same book John, John 16:12-15, the night He was betrayed, said to the apostles, Judas having gone, He said, "I have many things to say to you, but you can't hear them now, howbeit when the Holy Spirit is come, He will guide you into all truth, for He'll not speak of Himself but He'll take of the things of Mine and show them and He'll show you things to come." I believe that Christ there referred to what, among other things, what He gave when He went back to the glory and then called, saved Paul and caught him up to the third heaven and gave Paul regarding God's program for this present dispensation.

And I want to come back and ask you to read carefully Galatians the 6th chapter, and see if we can possibly believe what brother Kempin said was the force of land there. And remember what I brought to your attention: if you study the book of Galatians, then you are sure that what I gave is true, that the book of Galatians is a treatise given by Paul by inspiration to Gentile Christians in Galatia in the main to straighten them out on the question of do Gentile Christians need to become Jews in religion. So it's written to Gentile believers primarily; it's a treatise to the Gentile believers primarily. And so when he had laid down the rule for the salvation and walk of Gentile believers in the epistle before the 6th chapter (the closing), then he says,

And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

That's two classes of people; two groups of people. I am absolutely sure, and I know it fits with what Paul gave as I brought out while ago in 1 Corinthians 9, where he calls attention to the fact, "I, a Jew after the flesh, am pure from" ... "Though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant to the Jews," I walk as a Jew, "to those under the law as under the law", I called attention to the way he did it: with Timothy a half Jew circumcising him, Acts 16, you recall for the Jews, the Jews, and then in Cenchrea he had his head shaved with a Jewish vow, Acts 18:18. And these events occurred way over here in the Acts period. So I'm sure in Galatia, in Galatians there are two types of people. A Christian Gentile is not in any sense at all an Israelite, in no remote sense an Israelite.

In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile. We lose our national identity. But here we have the Israel of God.

Now what I gave about Christ the night He was betrayed in John 16 I think is most important. We must expect, in light of that statement, that after the Lord should go back to the glory and send the Holy Spirit down, the Holy Spirit would teach Peter, James, and John truths that Christ had never given them on earth. Now what are those truths:? What are those truths? They are the truths that are primarily in Paul's epistles. As we read, I suggested in Peter's last statement, of Paul in Galatians 2 that he went up to Jerusalem by revelation to meet with those who were apostles before him. "They didn't add a thing to me", he said. "It was just the opposite, I had something to give them." And he says the same of course in the epistles about the mystery given to him that was not known in other ages.

As to the church today being spiritual, and new creatures in Christ, born again, regenerated, predestinated from before the foundation of the world collectively, I agree with you 100% on that. That's fine. But does that do away with God's program with Israel, Romans 9, 10, 11 chapters?

Now let's read, we'll have time to at least glance, Romans the 11th chapter. We'll begin, we won't have time to read it all, but begin. By the way, in the latter part of the 10th chapter he said God is now provoking Israel to jealousy by visiting the Gentiles. So you see he carries on Gentile and Israel, Romans the 9th chapter: the Israel is the same Israel we read about in Matthew, Mark, and Luke, back in the Old Testament. Israel, Israel, flesh and blood twelve tribe Israel, descendants of Abraham, through Isaac and Jacob descendants again.

By the way, what he brought out in Romans 9, I wish I had time now to carefully go over the first part of that. "They're not all Israel who are of Israel", and he ... (you missed the point there I'm sure brother Kempin), Paul doesn't say they're not all Israel who are twelve tribe Israel, He says they are not all Israel who are of Israel. Now what is he talking about there? He's talking about Jacob. Now what's the line? "They're not all Israel who are of Israel, neither because they are the children of Abraham are they children." In other words, not all of Isaac's children are Israelites because Isaac had two sons. That's his argument in Romans 9. And he said not all of Abraham's children are Israelites because he had two sons, Ishmael. But he said, "In Isaac shall thy seed be called". Well that was flesh and blood. Isaac was just as much flesh and blood as I said in my first speech as Ishmael was. But is the flesh and blood the son of promise? So Paul isn't saying in Romans the 9th chapter that God is through with flesh and blood Israel, he's simply saying as he said in the 11th chapter 5th verse there's an election today according to the flesh of Israelites.

Let's look at 11:1,

I say then

But remember again now that l brought out in the 10th chapter that God is provoking Israel to jealousy now by visiting people that were not a people, Gentiles. He's provoking Israel to jealousy. Well, why if He's through with Israel as a nation? If He's just going to deal with them as individual sinners like Gentiles, why does he say he's provoking Israel to jealousy? Well  letís  continue the 11th chapter now.

I say then, Hath God cast away his people?

His people, His people, whom He foreknew,

God forbid.  For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.  Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elijah? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompense unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall?

flesh and blood Israel,

God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them,

Israel, flesh and blood Israel,

Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness? For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostles of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office.

and so forth. He says they're broken off because of unbelief and you Gentiles have been grafted in. He didn't say grafted into Christ. Now I haven't heard you say that but I'm sure that's the position you take. All the advocates that I've ever read after, heard on the subject, make the grafting in there salvation. Well the unbelieving Jewish nation wasn't taken out of Christ. They were taken out of their natural olive position because they refused to believe in Christ. They were simply taken away from their position of national favor and nearness to God and the Gentiles have been grafted in, not into Christ but grafted into a position of nearness where God's dealing with Gentiles directly now.

But He's going to break them off. Look at the 26th verse. If I had time I'd go over all these verses, but I don't have time now. The 25th verse,

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery.

And I speak kindly and candidly and frankly that I think brother Kempin is ignorant of this mystery. I repeat I certainly don't want to say it unkindly but clearly and positively, he's ignorant. This is inspired language, you're ignorant.

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel,

which Israel? The Israel that God's talking about, flesh and blood Israel, "until", "until"

until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past,

and so forth, and goes unto,

O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

I'm sure that God hasn't cast away His flesh and blood Israel yet; nobody can pull the sun down and the moon and put the stars out. Until they can, then they can't do away with God's purpose to make Israel and Judah a nation as He said in Jeremiah 31 and Jeremiah 33. In Jeremiah 30 He says, "You hear what these people are saying?" Sounds exactly like you're talking to Kempin and you're supposed to agree with him that God's cast away His two peoples. Said, "If you can break My covenant with the sun there will be no day, and the moon there will be no night, then you can break My covenant with Israel and Judah". But we can' t do that, of course. God is still going to finish dealing with flesh and blood Israel. For this present dispensation, that Paul calls ... for the people called "the mystery people", the believing Jew and the believing Gentile as he read from Ephesians 2, "the twain have been made one new man, making peace".

But that's not the whole program God has. Abraham wasn't in this new man. After salvation we're children of Abraham, but Abraham wasn't in the church of God in this present dispensation. Enoch wasn't in the church of God in this present dispensation the same company of which Christ is head. Christ became head of the church which is His body when He ascended and set down at the right hand of God we're told in Ephesians the 1st chapter. Then was when He became head of the church which is His body. And Abel was a believer; we read about that over in Hebrews and then 1 John as well as back in Genesis. Abraham was a believer. I'm sure he looked through that bloody lamb and by faith saw the Lamb of God 4,000 years down the line. But it didn't make him a member of the church which is Christ's body. He'll be in the kingdom of God, but he won't be a member of the church which is Christ's body, That's a new company in which the believer loses

his identity, neither Jew nor Gentile. It's a new purpose, a new program, and that's what Gods been doing. He hasn't been ... why you go back and read the prophecies about the kingdom, "The knowledge of the Lord is to cover the earth as the waters cover the sea".

I've dealt with these things with the so-called "Church of Christ" who give exactly the same position about their church being the kingdom; exactly the same position. And many times Iíve quoted the Scriptures of the prophets and said, "Just imagine you people, your pitiful little sect saying that you people are the one prophesied in Daniel, the kingdom, "In the days of these kingdoms the God of heaven will set up a kingdom. The stone cut out of a mountain without hands will come out and smash the feet and toes of the image of Gentile world government, reducing to a condition like the chaff of the summer threshing from the wind carrying away and that stone came and filled the whole  EARTH!"  ...The Roman Catholics have taught the very same thing that they are the kingdom and that's why the pope tried to do it. And they're really going to get by with a lot of it, according as I understand the Word of God, and right now in our nation are they doing that.

The church is a called out company, pilgrims and strangers down here, we're not the kingdom set-up on earth, we're pilgrims and strangers. God help us to rightly divide, giving no offense ... the Word, "Giving no offense to the Jew, nor Gentile, nor church of God".

Now I do hope brother Kempin, if the Lord permit it and we can have several sessions together, to go more carefully into these things.

Jack Langford: Brother Maurice went over verse 26 and verse 27. What is your understanding of those two verses?

Kempin: Well I would differ from brother Johnson that this New Covenant is the New Covenant made by Jesus Christ which began with His personal ministry in the world. "For all the law and the prophets were until John, but from that time on the kingdom of God is preached and every man presseth into it." So therefore the covenant that washes away sins  now is the New Covenant dedicated by the blood of Christ and there is no other covenant in force because the Old Covenant was done away. The New Covenant is the covenant dedicated by the blood of Christ which guarantees the forgiveness of sins now, and there is no more forgiveness of sins now, and there is no more forgiveness of sins after this dispensation is ended.

Langford: Pardon me, brother Kempin, I'll ask my question again. What is your understanding of verses 26 and 27 of Romans 11?

Kempin: I thought I answered you brother.

For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies ...

am I reading the right verse now?

chorus: Twenty-six.

Kempin: Oh. ,

And so ...

oh yes, I see what you mean, I was reading to the 27th verse,

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer,

that's Jesus Christ, He came out of Zion,

and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.

Here again, I ask only for consideration and for thought, the expression, "And so all Israel", refers to the new Israel in the New Testament which is composed of all believers. This is not and cannot be, a categorical statement that every Jew in the world will be saved. I'll prove it to you if you wish. Turn with me, again to, for an example, this is my answer to the 11th chapter of Romans, the one that brother Johnson had. I'll show you the point that Paul himself admits that it is a possibility that just like not all Gentiles will be saved, so not all Jews will be saved. Listen carefully, verse 5 Romans 11,

Even so then at this present time,

Paul's time,

also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. That means that just a few of the Jews accepted the Lord Jesus Christ in Paul's day. Now come down to verse 14 to show you that Paul does not, otherwise he confuses himself, contradict himself. Paul is not contradicting himself, it's a misunderstanding of Scripture that contradicts the situation you see. Here it is,

If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh,

mark you, they're the Jews all right,

and might save some of them.

That's my answer. This covenant that takes away-sin is made through Christ, the Lord that began His earthly ministry, and the believers among the Jews who accept Jesus Christ are that remnant and through all the ages of time until the second coming of Christ some of the Jews will be saved, not all of them, see. And his expression 'all Israel' refers to believing people, Gentiles and Jews, as twain one new man. There's the answer.

John Morey: Brother Maurice, do you have any comment on the question?

MMJ: I think he's ignoring the time element. Paul's referring to his own time in this present dispensation 'some' Jews being saved along with mostly Gentiles. He's failing to observe the 25th verse,

For I would not brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, 'lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. And so,

following that is when he refers to these Israelites here. And of course l don't believe the Scriptures teach all individual Jews. We have the expression 'all Israel', I used it recently in a discussion with a Universalist who said this meant eternal salvation to everybody. And I went back to the Old Testament and gave a few dozen occurrences of the expression 'all Israel'. "All Israel came before Moses", "All Israel came before Hezekiah", "All Israel ... ", but we have to read the context and see who lends to 'all' that God Himself lends to 'all'. It's 'all' like all Israel was saved out of Egypt, but there's many Israelites born since then, but they were Israelites in Israel back there.

Kempin: Then brother Johnson, do you agree with me that not all Jews as such, Paul could never have meant that every single Jew could be saved?

MMJ: Actually, I agree with you a 100%.

Kempin:  Our answers coincide. But the only thing we did wrong brethren is the definition, clarification, who is Israel in the New Testament? Brother Johnson still has to investigate that. We all have to study this a little bit more. Who composes the Israel of God? That's the thing you have to find out. Brethren, don't formulate any opinion, not mine, not brother Johnson's, but consider and search the New Testament especially.

Adair Grove:  Brother Kemp, here in the ...

Kempin: Would you mind excusing me if I tell you my name. My name is Kempin. K-E-M-P-I-N, Kempin. Yes sir?

:  Brother Kempin, here in the 26th verse of the 19th chapter of Romans it states, "so all Israel shall be saved". Now if Israel and the church are the same, will you kindly explain how in the 28th verse Israel is enemies of the gospel?

Kempin: Well that's easy, if you followed what I said. I said that the believers, whether Jew or Gentile, compose the new man. They are the Israel of God; they are the kingdom of God; they are the church of God; and the believers are that in Christ. Now the enemies are those who are unbelievers among the fleshly Israel, That's the only answer.

Grove: Who is the Israel of the 26th verse?

Kempin: The Israel of the 26th verse, like I said if you followed me... was your name? What...

Grove: Grove.

Kempin: Brother Grove, the Israel here is the composite number of believers, all believers in Christ. That's the Ďall Israelí, otherwise like dear brother Johnson has admitted that it could not mean all Jews, see, because Paul says a remnant of them shall be saved, saved some of them. Therefore this Ďall Israel' must be and is ? , it means the same as the church the believing body of Christ, those who are the Lord's.

Grove: Then why does he say He "shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob" if this Israel is the church?

Kempin:  But you must keep in mind the two classes always, dear brother Grove. Keep in mind the believing Israel, the unbelieving Israel, whether Jacob or anybody else. Keep those two classes in mind. That's all.

Grove:   All right, now then when he says in the 27th verse, "My covenant unto them", and evidently that's Jacob ...

Kempin:  That's to all those who are of Israel, all of Israel, natural, Israel, fleshly Israel,

Grove:   Well isn't Jacob the fleshly Israel?

Kempin:  Well sure, that's part of it. Yeah.

Grove:   All right, when He takes away their sin, see. So he's talking to fleshly Israel here when He's going to take sins away from fleshly Israel,

Kempin:  Yes sir.

Grove:  Now fleshly Israel is the enemy of the gospel?

Kempin:  Fleshly Israel is the enemy of the gospel,

Grove:  All right, then, it can't be the church up here in the 26th verse.

Kempin:   No. Fleshly Israel is never the church. It's only believing Israel that helps compose the church, believing Israel,

Grove: But you referred to aft Israel being saved as the church in the 26th verse.

Kempin:   Composed of all believers, Jews or Gentiles, of twain, like Paul said, "Of twain He makes one new man".

Grove:  The covenant here is with fleshly Israel and not with the Gentiles.

Kempin:   Of all those who believe.  Jesus will never forgive any sins without the sinner asking for them. In other words, forgiveness is not automatic.  Is it brother Grove, is forgiveness ever automatic?

Grove:  It's based upon the condition of the heart.

Kempin:   That's it. Absolutely. We believe it. You believe same as I do.

Grove:  I don't agree with what you're saying about it. Do you want to comment on this Maurice?

MMJ:   Yes, I want to say again that I think brother Kempin is completely ignoring the 25th verse. That is a time element, and a condition.  A few Jews who were being saved while Paul wrote, and are still being saved in the present dispensation, those are the election according to grace while it's still God's program to visit the Gentiles to provoke Israel to jealousy. But the time is going to come when the fullness of the Gentiles wilt have come in. And after that, "All Israel shall be saved", "for this is My covenant unto them".  Yes?

______: May I make a statement?

MMJ : Yes.

Morey: Want to make it a question?

______: Ok, I'll make it in a statement, or in a question. Why would God reckon duration or time?

MMJ: Why would God reckon duration? Well because He's told us over in the beginning about ages and other ages and this age and the age to come. That's God's business, if He reveals it or He doesn't. He does have many ages, brother Kempin will agree with that. Different ages ... what about the time when God had the Ten Commandments as His program? He said at the beginning it was the New Testament time, and that it was the Old Testament time back there. So that's very simple, and very clearly brought out in the Scriptures. As to why, that's God's business, but He saw fit to do it.

Kempin:  Brother chairman, may I break in here: at this point, it's very important. I would challenge any mortal on earth to prove that there is salvation for anybody after Jesus Christ returns again. I challenge any person here to prove from Scripture that when Jesus comes, salvation's continued in any form.

MMJ: Well, I would think it depends on what coming you referred to.

Kempin:  The second coming of Christ, the second coming of Christ.

Wilbur Johnson:  I would like to ask this question. You said brother Kempin that the New Covenant began when Jesus Christ was baptized of John. What do you do with Hebrews 9 where we read that no testament is in force until after men are dead, Jesus Christ Himself being the testator of the New Covenant, how could the New Covenant have begun before the death of Jesus Christ?

Kempin:  I said it began with Christ. What was your name?

Johnson:  Johnson.

Kempin: Brother Johnson, brother Johnson. I pinpoint the whole New Covenant, the new dispensation, with the personal life, teaching, death, resurrection, and ascension of the Lord Jesus. In this brief discussion, if there's anything lacking in my explanation it's due 'to the lack of time, remedy of time.

(gap on tape)

MMJ: ...the New Covenant is new relationship to the Mosaic. Read carefully in Hebrews in the 8th and the 5th chapters, and see the argument there.  Look at the covenants:  The covenant that God gave to Noah was in the blood of Jesus Christ; the covenant God gave to Abraham was in the blood of Jesus Christ; the covenant God gave to Israel, Judah, was in the blood of bulls and goats, that covenant waxed old and passed away; the covenant that God promised to David that a king would sit on his throne on the basis of the blood of Jesus Christ for the sins of Israel; the covenant that God promised to Israel, Judah, when they were under the galling yoke of the Mosaic covenant is in the blood of Jesus Christ. All the covenants but the Mosaic are in the blood of Jesus Christ.

But Gentile believers today have nothing whatsoever to do with the New Covenant. It's for Israel and Judah. It's "My covenant unto  them",  Romans the 11th chapter.  God help us.

Clarence Morey:    I have a question. It seems to me that the statement was made that there will be no more salvation ...

MMJ:   Who is your question to?

Morey:   Brother Kempin. When children grow up in the kingdom, are they going to have any chance for salvation?

Kempin: Dear brother Morey, I will simply say what Paul said, that when Jesus comes it's the end. There is no more of any kind. The interpretation of brother Johnson of the word 'end' is entirely wrong. No grammarian would substantiate his interpretation of that word, see. It means the end, a terminal point, see. That's all, There is nothing more after the end. Today is the day of salvation. This is the only day of salvation for this people today that are living and shall live until the coming of Jesus Christ. There is no more salvation after He comes.

_______:    Don't we believe that Christ is coming in the clouds for the church?

Kempin: He's coming for everybody. Every eye shall see Him.  And then is He coming back as king? You read two different comings you see, but you didn't make any distinction.

Kempin: He is coming as Judge of all mankind. Acts 17:34 brings that out, "God has appointed a day in the which He shall judge all mankind by that man whom He hath ordained, giving assurance of that fact by the resurrection of the dead", see.  He's appointed a day, He's coming to judge all mankind. That's one reason I say in this connection that we should read the end of the passage why He must reign. Christ is reigning now, "Till He hath", regardless of what brother Johnson has said, "Till He hath put down all His enemies under His feet". He's reigning now till He puts all enemies under His feet. "The last enemy", and no grammarian will substantiate brother Johnson's interpretation of the word 'shall', "the last enemy that shall be destroyed", that's future tense, see. "In that he saith, all things are put under Him, it is manifest He is excepted which did put all things under Him." In other words, He still has the work to do. "He hath put", He still has the cobbler business going on until, see, the last enemy. "When all things shall be subdued unto Him", see, "then shall the Son also", listen, "then the Son also be subject unto Him that put all things under Him that God may be all in all". There's your answer.

MMJ: What about all the passages I gave on the very same subject: Ephesians 1, Colossians 2, Hebrews 2?

Kempin:  First of all, take Acts 2. Brother Johnson refused to read the passage in its entirety. The prophecy of David having a person or son to sit on his throne was fulfilled in Jesus Christ. And here it is, I don't have to make any comment on it. It's here. He's seeing this. Seeing what? Seeing the promise to David of a person to sit upon his throne, spake before, see,

Spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted,

the Lord Christ is exalted, that's his language, the writer's language,

and having received,

"having received". Any person understanding English must admit that this is a prophecy fulfilled. "Having received", not shall receive,

having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has shed forth this,

Pentecost is a result of our Lord's crowning and reigning.

For David,

see, the throne is not in Jerusalem, it's up there.,

For David hath not ascended up into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit on my right hand until I make thy foes thy footstool,

MMJ:   Pardon me. Now you said I refused to read it and I read every bit of it.

Kempin:  No you didn't.

MMJ:  I read every bit of it down to there. I read it all when you asked me to awhile ago. You called my name a moment ago and said, that my statement about the word 'end' that no grammarian would agree with it.

Kempin: No grammarian would agree with it.

MMJ: You said it means 'terminus'. Does the word 'end' mean 'terminus' in the book of James, "the end of the Lord"?

Kempin: Iím talking about this word, brother Johnson. No grammarian would  substantiate your interpretation.

MMJ: Is it the same word so far as you know in the English?

Kempin: I'm not talking about any other verse but this verse.

MMJ: But pardon me, I am. You said ...

Kempin: Brother Johnson, this one verse enters into our discussion.

MMJ: You said the word Ďend' means 'terminus'.

Kempin: Terminus.

MMJ: What did it terminate?

Kempin: Well read it and find out.

MMJ:  I'm asking you.

Kempin:   Read it and find out, it's very clear.  Brethren, this kind of discussion is unfavorable.

MMJ:   Now you're the one that called my name and said I was asked to...      ?      ?      .

Kempin:  That's true.

MMJ:   I don't mind that if you believe...     ?       .

Kempin:   Brother Johnson, dear brethren, has wandered so far away from the Scriptures Iíve cited and has rambled into other fields extraneous to our subject that any person that wants the truth could never find it by his exposition. A conglomeration of a number of ideas rather than a point developed definitely based upon the Scriptures and a reasonable interpretation of it. Such a discussion disappoints me terribly, I'll tell you that. All right Johnny, you rule us out, rule us in as you please.

Morey:   Well, the question is still up. He asked you to comment upon the word 'end' there. What has ended?

Kempin: Oh, is that the question? I'll turn to that again, 1 Corinthians 15,

But now is Christ risen from the dead,

verse 20,

and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

See the language is clear. He is the first of all those to be resurrected.

For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

That's clear., He's talking to the Christian believers like brother Johnson said. They will be raised' at His coming. He's not talking so much about the ungodly at this time. But the point is this: at His coming, and when the Lord comes, what then, what next?

Then the end

of all things, the terminal point of all human existence, of all earthly existence., of earthly orders, the end of the day of salvation. That's what I mean. That's what Paul means, I think.

MMJ:   End of His reign, that'll be the end of His reign?

Kempin:  The end. Well all right, I'm not saying it, listen to this,

When he shall have delivered up the kingdom, when,

that language brother Johnson. You directed your answers to me very specifically, I direct to you and ask you to consider whether and pray and ask God to clarify your soul and mind.

When he shall have delivered up, delivered up, the kingdom, even,

when? At His coming, not anytime afterwards, at His coming,

even the Father; when he shall have put down,

when? At His coming, not afterwards, at His coming, At His coming, my brethren, that's the end, at His coming. He puts

down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

Listen, listen now, listen carefully.

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

When Jesus Christ comes, all is ? but the dead shall arise. The dead shall rise, all the dead shall arise. All that are in the graves shall come forth. That's the resurrection...

MMJ: ... Is that the end?

Kempin: At His coming, the end.

MMJ: Let's see now if I understand what you gave. He must put down all rule, now watch, and authority and so forth and so forth and the last to be put down is death. Now watch! He must reign, put down authority, rule, dominion, power, and the last death. Now, does He put those down when He comes back or before He comes back?

Kempin:  At His coming.  Dear brethren, brother Johnson crawfishes.  And I rise to a point of order. As a parliamentarian Johnny, you should call the point. At His coming, at His coming, that's the whole point. That's the difference between you and me. You're going beyond His coming and the lord says at His coming this ends, That's it.

MMJ: Let me read. You think I'm going to crawfish now?.

Kempin: Yes sir. This is the point of law, interpretation. The subject is His coming.

MMJ: 1 Corinthians 15:10,

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

The firstfruits. Are there going to be any other fruits come as the result of His resurrection? Is that the argument? All right. He's the firstfruit of them that slept.

For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

Is that speaking of Christ's resurrection and what's going to come from it? The fruits that'll come from it? Yes.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

As a result of His resurrection. Is that the argument? As a result of His resurrection. He's the firstfruit of them that sleep. In John 12, "Except a grain of wheat fall in the ground and die, it abideth alone. But if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit". Does Christ's resurrection guarantee the resurrection of all believers? Or is it some future work that guarantees it? Are we risen potentially in the resurrection of Christ? Is that the argument here? All right now watch.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all me made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

That's when we get our resurrection bodies, as he says later in the chapter.

Then cometh the end;

now watch,

when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God ...

Kempin:   When?

MMJ:    ...even the Father. Now watch.

Kempin: When?

MMJ:   ...when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when, now here he's going to give the time element and effect, when he shall have put down all rule, He won't deliver up the kingdom to the Father until He's done this, now watch, when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power, now this 'when' then wilt follow His putting down all rule and power and authority. Is that right? He's going to put down first.

Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down,

"shall have put down", accomplished fact, "shall have put down".

Kempin: Future tense, too.

MMJ:   Is that "when He shall have" future tense?

Kempin:  Future tense. The word 'shall' always indicates future tense, futurity.

MMJ: No, I beg your pardon, you better study your grammar again. Young man, if you think 'shall' always means future. Now watch,

when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

If this means that death will be destroyed only when He comes back, well it's the last and He will have conquered, because these others have to be conquered first. Is that what the text says.?

Kempin: Well sure. That's what I've been saying.

MMJ:   All right, now watch. So when He comes back, it will be the end of His reign, according to you. It'll be the end according to you.

Kempin:  According to this statement here.

MMJ:  It'll be the end, of His reign. Turn back to Luke 1 please, 30, Luke 1;30,

And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

So I don't believe Christ will stop reigning when He comes back. He couldn't, because there's too many scriptures that make it very clear and positive.

But I call to your attention brother Kempin, and "He that's of God hears God's Word", and I didn't quote from the almanac or a book that Maurice Johnson wrote, when I called to your attention in Ephesians the 1st chapter the unmistakeably plain statement that all power and all authority and all dominion and all principality and every name that's named not only in this age but in that which is to come is already under Him and He is made head over all things to the church, Ephesians 1. Not only in this age are these principalities and powers already under Him but in the age to come. It's not got to be done in the future, it's already done, for both  this age and age to come, Ephesians 1. Then in Colossians 2, I read to you some of that, that Christ arose, ascended,

He spoiled the principalities and powers., triumphing over them in His resurrection and ascension and made an open show of them, displayed them to the heavenly world, so forth, His resurrection and ascension, and then sat down.

And I called your attention to Hebrews 2 that He in His  death destroyed him that had the power of death, that's the devil, Well he's the god of all the cults and the principalities against God. So Christ has already come out having destroyed the devil.

And 2 Timothy 1:10, "He hath abolished", it's the same word in the Greek, "He hath destroyed death, and brought life and incorruptibility to light by the gospel", not by a prophecy of a future reign or even in the present, but by the gospel. He has already abolished, destroyed death.

As you get all those scriptures together ... and you have to be an infidel, a rank infidel, if you believe Christ's got to do something in the future to destroy death.

Kempin: Brother Johnson. Johnny, may I break in and say one word here, please. And this is this: brother Johnson does not seem to see the plan of God at all. I'm surprised at his lack of insight of the wonderful scheme of salvation. The Lord conquered death on the cross, see, for us. He proved it by arising from the dead. That's how He conquered death for Himself; potentially for all believers, potentially all believers. When He comes again, He conquers death actually for all men in the .resurrection. That's when he's talking about. John 5:28, "Verily, verily, I say unto you. The hour is coming when all that are in the grave shall come forth." That is the coming of which the apostle is speaking.

The Lord's reigning or kingdom never will have an end, brethren, see. It's to be an everlasting kingdom. It goes merely from the Father to the Son back to the Father. It is endless in that sense. The Lord's part, the Lord Jesus' part, I'm not of any of this, the Lord's part ceases like it began, see. It began with His birth, it ends with His. second coming. That's all that Paul's saying and that's all that I say.

MMJ:  And He shall sit on the throne of His father David, and reign forever, "and of His kingdom there shall be no end".

Kempin:  His part ceases while His kingdom goes on. Don't you see that dear brother Johnson?

MMJ: No, I don't see that.

Kempin: And Jesus Christ came to take it up, He fulfilled His part, He ceases His part, gives it back to the Father. It came from the Father, Jesus said, "I came from My Father. The words that I speak are not mine, they are the Father's". He came out from the Father, He did His Father's will, when He comes His will has been completed, He gives back the kingdom to God who entrusted it to Him. The kingdom goes on. Certainly God Almighty is the king. God Almighty is the king, even God the Father.

You see, here is the proof. May I say Johnny, if you'd stick with this scripture, this part in Corinthians, if you'd stick with it, it would clarify the whole thing.

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, that is Christ dear brother, remember this,

then shall the Son also himself,


be subject unto him,

who is that? That's God Almighty His Father, your Father and my Father, that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Morey:  How does that fit, brother Kempin, with the statement in Isaiah 9:6,7? Let me read this,

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Kempin: Just as that is saying like 1 Corinthians 15th chapter. Certainly the government goes on, the kingdom of God increases, it shall come glorious, but the Son will be subject.

Morey: Based upon the government being upon the Son's shoulders, then He is sitting upon the throne of David forever.

: You see dear brother, you have to interpret scripture in the light of scripture. This is the idea: the Lord gave Jesus Christ the privilege of reigning to be our savior. He came, volunteered for us in fact, He took upon Himself the form of a servant. He became the King of saints, that's Revelation the 1st chapter ... the 15th chapter, forgive me, I forget the exact reference, Revelation 15:14 I think it is, "Thou King of saints". He reigns with us and in us and through us as King of kings and Lord of lords. The thing that I'm saying when the Lord comes, at His coming, the dead are raised, then the end of all things. And with the resurrection, the eternal destinies of all mankind are sealed. Jesus does it. when all come forth out of the grave, John 5:28. Some are raised to life everlasting, some to eternal death and condemnation. Those are how I believe. And the Lord lays down the rule. This Paul wrote.

I'd like to establish this principle in Bible study. Dear brethren, stay with one passage until it is clearly understood before going to any other passage, jumping from one place to another; you confuse yourself, you see. And then interpret scripture in the light of all scripture, see. Take the total plan of salvation.  It has meaning. If you do not take it that way, it simply has no meaning for you.

MMJ:  Pardon me.  If I may not take all the scriptures given in the Bible on the subject of Christ's birth to try to understand fully the statement in Luke, then your argument is right. But if the way to study the Scriptures, at least a safe way, is the way the Spirit of God led Peter in that first Spirit indicted sermon after the resurrection, Acts 2. He goes to David ...'he goes first to Joel and gives a little bit out of Joel, then he goes to David in several different psalms and gives them together, and he gives the same in the 2nd epistle, and Paul did the same over and over and over again. And that's the way to study the Word of God.

So I on the subject of Christ conquering death and all dominion and power and authority must first be put down and the last enemy death, l quoted about six passages that are specifically on that subject. And all but 1 Corinthians 15 is so obvious to a careful student, that it had to be past, it had to be before His ascension, that I know of nobody that doubts or would try to argue that Ephesians doesn't present the risen Christ already having conquered all principalities and power and all might and all dominion and all authority and every name that's named not only in this age but in that which is to come. And it's on the basis of that that He's head over all things to the church. And I called your attention ...

Kempin:   Brother Johnson reads into "of all things to come". I challenge you to find where it says "of all things to come" in Ephesians. Quick references, like that without staying with the passage.

MMJ:   Where did I put in "of all things to come"?

Kempin:  In the 1st chapter of Ephesians, "all things to come", "put all things under Him and also" ...

MMJ:  I'll read "all things to come".

Kempin: You read it in. It's not here, see.

MMJ: Well pardon me, let's read it.

Kempin:  That's why you speak too fast, brother Johnson. You read things ... you speak things into the Scripture that are not there.

MMJ:  I'll be fast to apologize if I made that mistake. Look now. The power which God wrought in Christ, Ephesians 1:20,

when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the Heavenlies, Far above all principality, and power, might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in that which is to come.

Kempin:  Sure, He's head over everything. The Lord is to reign.

MMJ:  Are you going to apologize for falsely accusing me?!'

Kempin:   Wait a minute, you don't understand me, my statement. You put down this categorical statement that Jesus Christ is to keep on reigning in the future.

MMJ:  What about what you said about "all things to come"?  You said I put it in here and it isn't in here.

Kempin:   Iíll say this, I misunderstood you. I misunderstood you in this connection: Jesus Christ is to end His reign when He comes, not continue to reign when He comes, like Paul said. I misunderstood you brother Johnson in respect...

MMJ:  I was calling attention to this fact (I'm glad you brought that up), I was calling attention to this fact, that according to Ephesians 1, quoting not only the words that are used in 1 Corinthians 15 about He must reign till He put down all rule and authority, but adding two or three including the next age, that they are already under Him      ?      .  So His reigning for that purpose is already past according to that passage, and according to Colossians 2, and according to 1 Peter 3:22, and according to Hebrews 1, and Hebrews 8, and according to Revelation 1, and according to Hebrews the 2nd chapter, and according to 2 Timothy 1:10, He has already conquered the last enemy death. Therefore 1 Corinthians 15 of course is bound to be a record of what the gospel is, the culmination of the gospel, what made it good news after all is that Christ who came down to a bunch of dead sinners (dead in trespasses and sin with the death penalty hanging over them, second death) and took our death and let the devil lay hold of Him and came out of the grave with the keys of death and hell, having reigned over all principalities and powers, might and dominion, rule and authority, not only in this age but in that which is to come. Therefore, there is no future reign that will be characterized by Christ defeating powers and rule, winding up with the last one being death.

What death is going to be destroyed by Christ coming back?

Kempin:    You can't see that?

MMJ:    It isn't destroyed now?

Kempin:   Certainly not. The resurrection, the general ... he's talking about the general resurrection brethren. You see how brother Johnson does not see what Jesus Christ is coming to do. When He comes again, the general resurrection will take place. That's the Word of God. Mark you, you don't see that, you don't see anything brother Johnson. When Jesus Christ comes." He comes to raise the dead.

MMJ:   Did I say...

Morey: ...I want to get the answer of the question he asked.  He asked you what, what death?

MMJ:  What death is Christ going to destroy?

Kempin:  The death that holds people in their graves.  Here it is, John 5:28, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming in the which all that are in the graves shall come forth", see. After that He's going to destroy to release those who've been held like Revelation says, "And the sea gave up the dead, and the earth gave up the dead", and so on. That's the death He's coming to destroy.

MMJ:  Is He going to raise the unbeliever?

Kempin:  All, John 5:28. All that are in the graves. All!

MMJ:  Now watch. Will He destroy the death of those who died in their sins?

Kempin:  He's raising them up for judgment.

MMJ:  Will that be destroying their death?

Kempin:  No.  Listen to this...

MMJ:    That's my question. My question is will He destroy the death of the unbeliever?

Kempin:   He's destroying the power of death over all people.

MMJ:   He's already done that, didn't He?

Kempin:   John 5.  Just a minute, wait a minute.  Let's not jump from one scripture to another. One scripture, until we clear the passage we're studying.  That's the principle of viability. Here it is, John 5,  John 5. Turn to John 5 again brethren. Stay with that awhile, and let that soak in.  Don't jump from one sense to another. Here it is, Jesus Christ is talking of two resurrections. John 5:25 first,

Verily, verily, l say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

See there's one kind of dead people; they're the spiritually dead we all agree. They hear the Word of God and live, because they accept the Word of God. That's salvation see, that's the spiritual resurrection. Now listen to this,

Marvel not at this,

verse 28,

for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice:, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;


and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

There's your answer.

MMJ: How do you know He's going to do that?

Kempin: Jesus Christ Himself said it.

MMJ: Fine. On what basis? on what basis ..

Kempin:   ...on the basis that He's the Resurrector, see.  He's the Resurrector; power of the resurrection.

MMJ:   Now watch.

Kempin:   All right.

MMJ:  Was I giving Bible truth when I called attention to the fact in John 12 where Christ said, "Except a grain of wheat fall in the ground and die, it abideth alone; but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit"?   I gave that in connection with the statement in 1 Corinthians 15 "the firstfruits". And I called attention to the fact, because it's true of course, that the only reason a believer in Christ like Paul, who has died physically, will be raised is because Christ is raised. And that was Paul's argument as I brought to your attention in the book of ... in 1 Corinthians 15. He began by saying, "I give you the gospel".   Now.   And the gospel is that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, buried, and rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, now if there isn't any resurrection then Christ isn't raised. Now what's the basis of the argument there? You're going to live because Christ has conquered death, because Christ is the firstfruits, He's the grain of wheat that fell in the ground and died and abideth.

Now the fact that at the resurrection He's going to take bodies out of the grave-, that isn't the basis on which they're raised. That isn't because He has     ?       and conquered death. You're saying that when He raises the bodies of believers that's conquering death. The Word of God does not teach that, but positively the opposite. He has already conquered death. That's why we know that if we die we have a house in heaven. We know it already on the basis of what He's done. That's the argument in 1 Corinthians 15, He's the firstfruits of them that slept.

And I called your attention, 1 Corinthians 3, that death belongs to us, and I quoted the next part, "death is ours", "death is ours". The fact He's going to come back and raise the bodies doesn't mean at all that He's going to destroy death at that time because death isn't an enemy to the believer. I called that to your attention, it belongs to the believer, it's not an enemy. Christ Himself has the keys of it, and as- He has the keys of the enemy, where is the death an enemy to the believer? Paul said "to die is gain", "to die is gain", "Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of His saints".

So of course your kingdom doctrine, you've got to hold on to this, but it wrecks a lot of glorious truth. Yes, you started to ask a question awhile ago?

_______:  Will you explain 1 Thessalonians 4:16?  There will not be an end, a terminal point when Christ is come to end this world to take those to be with Him.  Explain this then.

MMJ:  Now wait. You're making a condition ... I agree with you perfectly. There won't be an end so far as what? I believe so far as my living down here on earth in a mortal body's concerned, there will be a terminus of that, because I'd be caught up to be with the Lord of course.

_______:  My question is the whole world, the whole universe, is the end of the whole universe, period; not individually, the whole universe, the end of the whole universe?

MMJ: All right, you said 1 Thessalonians 4:16,

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then,

He's not speaking here of the unsaved, but only the believers. The believers that will be alive when He comes back, and the believers that will already have died physically. The dead will be raised first, and

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.

_______: Ok, then, at this time, if we're going to be in the air, then we'll have spiritual     ?       .  Will that reign of Christ be here on earth or is it going to be in heaven?

MMJ: When He comes back to restore the kingdom to Israel, al-t-1 the believers of all the ages that have died will come back. Abraham and Moses will sit down in the kingdom He said, and so forth.

_______: If you were in heaven physically, would you even come back to this earth again?

MMJ: It would depend... first, on the part the Lord says Himself, where the Lord will be.  When He comes back with His saints.  I'll be very delighted to be one of them, and will,

_______:  Then... but that reign will never be here on this earth.

MMJ: "If we suffer with Him, we shall reign with Him", I read in Timothy the 2nd chapter.

_______:  In Revelation it says    ?     the souls who are on the altar in heaven.

MMJ:  That's speaking of a future group. I have never been on that altar, never expect to be. Never expect to be in that group at all.

_______: All the Christians who have died in Christ and all who are living and that will have died, what salvation they have obtained by believing in Christ and His blood, resurrection and so on, will be under that altar?

MMJ:      ?

______: Definitely.

MMJ:   I see nothing at all, I see nothing in that context ...

_______:   I have another question to ask you.  Uhh, do you believe in sectarianism?

MMJ: I believe sectarianism exists, like the devil and all. I think that sectarianism is one of the works of the flesh, like drunkenness and murder and adultery.

_______:  Do you have sectarianism in your group?

MMJ:   Well, I'm one with you if you're saved, and so does anyone in "my" group, your group too. That attitude is sectarianism, see.

_______:  It has been my impression with you people, you don't care for ... you don't like sectarianism, you condemn sectarianism. Because every one of you from the oldest to the youngest has the same conception, that conception that you have.

MMJ:  Well pardon me, is that proof of sectarianism?  Paul said, "I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing ... that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment". Now would that be sectarian? If we had the same mind and judgment? Do you think it's an advertisement of an evolutionary fact that the so-called "Church of God" isn't sectarian because they're all that ... because they do disagree with each other? That's proof that they're God's people because they do disagree? Then God's the author of confusion.

No-o-o, if we're all together, and not together in Christ and according to His Word, then it could be a hard and fast sect with somebody a kind of pope or a bunch of them you see. But if we all speak the same thing because we're humble, I say it's from the mighty hand of God, and in the same minds one toward another. God has tempered the body together that there should be no schisms in the body, but that the members should have the same care one for the other, see. And what the Holy Spirit teaches me a doctrine, and teaches you on the same doctrine, He won't ... we won't come away this way. You may learn faster than I, but we won't be opposed to each other. We won't be saying different things in the sense of contradicting because God is not the author of confusion.

So I thank God that you've seen some evidence of unanimity of believing the same here. What you have seen, whether you reckon it or not, if what if you've seen is all speaking the truth ... but to say that some of us, I from time to time ... that I never slip, that I never step in the flesh, I wouldn't dare stay that. But when the Holy Spirit convicts me, to some degree, but anyway I confess and I'm ashamed because I'm saved and l love the Lord.

In the church at Corinth there was a degree of carnality creeping in but Paul dealt with it you know. And in the church at Philippi two women were at odds, and Paul called their names, writing and so forth. But that didn't prove the church at Philippi was a sectarian church because they were the church of ... they were Godís people there, their weaknesses were dealt with, and so far as I know they were accepted in the early days. We know the Corinthians church, they were certainly characterized by sectarian divisions stalking there, "I'm of Paul, I'm of Apollos, I'm of Cephas". That Paul rebuked it and said, "I want you to speak the same things. I beseech you in the name of the Lord".

Morey: Anyone else have any questions?

Glenn Lewis: I have one.

Morey: Let's have this be the last question, and be prepared, and I'll ...

MMJ: Because it is late.

Lewis: Is it my understanding, brother Kempin, that since the covenant that Israel broke ... Christ cut off the seed of Israel and they ceased to be a nation?

Kempin: They have ceased to have a covenant relationship with God. Their covenant was broken. Therefore they're not under any covenant. They are in the    ?     as Paul says, "There is no difference", "For God hath concluded them all under unbelief that He might have mercy upon all". So see therefore they are only recognized by God in the sense that they're creatures of God subject to salvation like the Gentiles may be subject to salvation. All under unbelief, all have mercy through the Lord Jesus Christ by the New Covenant is in force dedicated by the blood of Christ both believing Jew, believing Gentiles come under that New Covenant which dedicated by the blood of Jesus, shed for the remission of sins.

Lewis: Well were they cast off, was Israel cast off because of their breaking the covenant?

Kempin: Paul said God has cast them off, in that sense, that they were plucked out like branches broken off. But they can be put back ... brother Johnson misunderstood what I said see, even here clearly enough. I said the original tree, which was the good olive tree, stood; the natural branches were broken off by unbelief. Here is the Gentile tree, the wild olive tree over here, these wild branches by believing were grafted into this original tree. That's the Israel of God. Still the old stock is here. But the unbelievers were broken off, so believing Jews are grafted back, believing Gentiles are grafted into this original tree which is the continuous kingdom.

In other words, the kingdom of God in the Old Testament, the kingdom of God under Jesus the Lord as reigning Lord, the kingdom of God eternally, that'll go on forever and forever, see.

Lewis:   Maybe I don't understand, but it seems to me like that you spoke of there in Jeremiah where they broke the covenant that they...  Is it my understanding that you teach there that they essentially broke the covenant, that they have ceased to be a nation?

Kempin: God Almighty has rejected them as a covenant people, see. He has rejected them as a covenant people. They were a covenant relationship with Him; they broke that covenant, therefore they are no longer under a covenant relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ or with God Himself,

Lewis:  They ceased to be a nation?

Kempin:  They have ceased to be a covenant people. They're unbelievers, they need mercy, they find that mercy -- Christ. The new nation does emerge. God does not look upon the Jews as a nation with favor as such, no more than He does upon England, or France, or the United States, you see. They're just people, unbelievers, needing salvation. He has mercy upon all who will call upon Him. That's Paul's statement. Therefore, those who believe become the new nation, the peculiar people who bring forth the fruits of the kingdom of God which is taken from the Jewish people as a nation and as a covenant people who broke their covenant.

Lewis:  In other words they ... in other words ...

Morey:   That's a    ?   question. Glenn, we can cover it later.

Lewis:  Can we get together again?

Morey:  Well, the other speakers ...

MMJ:  I'd be very glad to.

Kempin:  Well this young man back there raised his hand several times.  I'm awfully sorry Johnny, this brother wanted to have recognition and somebody kind of always got ahead of him. So if you wish to give him an opportunity.

Jim Stogsdill (?):  Thank you. I don't know whether my question would prove too much, and I do want to be considerate of everyone. The question I had was if Christ was to conquer death when He comes back, what is He going to do to conquer this death when He comes back?

Kempin:  Just raises the dead, that's all.

Stogsdill (?):  That's all He has to do?

Kempin:  That's all He has to do, just raise the dead.

Stogsdill (?): I don't quite see it in the Scriptures.

Kempin:  Yes, that's it. At His coming, see, at His coming. Death is conquered, John 5:28, Keep that as the verse in mind. All that hear the trump shall come forth and Jesus Christ does that when He comes.

Stogsdill (?):  But that doesn't say He conquers death in that matter,

Kempin:  That's it. That's the only way He conquers death is by raising the dead. And then casting hell and death into the lake that burns with fire and brimstone forever. He does that.

Morey:  Any other comment?

MMJ:  "For this is My covenant unto them", referring to flesh and blood Israel, Romans the 11th chapter when He will again be with them on a covenant relationship after the fullness of the Gentiles come in.

Kempin: That's brother Johnson's statement. Paul doesn't say that, nor anyone else that says that. Brother Johnson's playing on words. My modesty is confused and abused. Though I said this is a hard passage of scripture, and brother Johnson's taken advantage of my humility and my modesty by     ?       , but I tell you brethren I think I know the answer concerning Israel. See if you want to play your statement, I think I have the truth. I witness to it, see.

Morey:  Do you want to make an announcement this evening on attending another ...

Kempin:  I think if this vein would continue Johnny, I don't think there would be a profitable ... result. I don't see any great reason for continuing that vein when a person jumps from one scripture to another. If brother Johnson would stay in 1 Corinthians 15, that section, oh from the 20th verse on and digest that and bring an answer thatís fair and honest, see, without putting any face on it, I'm willing to meet again. But if he just ignores the plain statement of God and brings in extraneous ideas that Paul never had here or anybody else and makes it appear as though there were something else added to it, then the 'end' is the end and if he goes beyond that, I don't care to go on, personally.

Morey: Let me make one comment here brother Kempin, in consideration for your accusation or statement there. This evening we took down long lists of scriptures on the subject you gave us which moved us in the Bible from book to book all on the subject.  Now I don't see how it would be fair to stay, "Brother Maurice, you got to stay here in 1 Corinthians and don't go to any other passage that deals with the subject or I won't think you're being" ...

Kempin:  ...But it ignores, brethren, see, this is my point Johnny: 'shall' always means future, see, 'shall have', 'shall lay down'.  Any grammarian ... if a person has no basis of reading ...in other words, if you don't accept English as English, I have no argument. If you come to a point like 'end', I challenge you or anyone else to find a definition in any commentary where it shows that 'end' does not mean 'end' in a terminal sense, then I would give in.

MMJ:  Pardon me, then you can give in right now then. What about the passage I referred to in James, "consider the end of the Lord", "the end of the Lord".

Kempin:  Which passage?

MMJ:  In the hook of James.

Kempin: "Which passage in the book of James?

MMJ:  The only passage that refers to the patience of Job and the end of the lord.  Now does that mean terminus? Remember your statement.

Kempin:  Just read it dear brother Johnson and stay with it. No one else, just stay with it.

Kempin:  5:11. All right, read it.

MMJ:   Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

Kempin:  My, my, brother Johnson

MMJ:  Is that the end of the Lord?

Kempin:  If you don't distinguish between this word 'end' and the word 'end' used in Corinthians, then I pity your job ...

MMJ.   ...But you made the statement that no commentator, nobody has ever said there's but one meaning. Let's get that tape recording of what he said ...

Kempin: ... Just a moment, this 'end' is clear. I was speaking of the word 'end' in Corinthians only.

chorus: Ah-h-h.

MMJ: Oh-h--h, you sound like a Campbellite debater.

Kempin: Just a moment, raise your hand.  The word 'end'.  If I don't make myself clear brethren, please bring attention to it, The word 'end' in Corinthians I stop with, that... I said that word 'end' means terminus ... the context anywhere else, like for example verse 11 here, seeing "the end of the Lord". The "end of the Lord" means the purposes of the Lord.

MMJ:  Good.

Kempin: Anybody knows that.

MMJ:  And that's exactly what it means in 1 Corinthians 15!  The consummation, the purpose the Lord had in view in coming down was to conquer death.  That's the 'end'.

Kempin: You come to the 1 Corinthians letter with the same common honesty that I approach the Scripture, then you'll get somewhere too, see. I think we better cease here, brethren. I don't think there's any point ... if rather, could we establish a basis for discussion and shall remove (shall?) any futility involved, and 'end' does mean 'end'. This passage of Scripture where it means 'terminus' ...

MMJ:  When I called you on it, then you backed up on what you said.

Kempin: No, no.

MMJ:  You backed up on what you were saying.

Kempin:  I stopped on that point positively. The 'end'. means 'terminus' in 1 Corinthians 15. That's it.

MMJ:  I know everybody ... he didn't say that at all about 1 Corinthians 15.  He said any commentary anywhere will tell you what it means. That's the reason I got up so quickly.

Kempin:  That 'end', that 'end', means 'end'. That's all I can say.

MMJ:   You backed up then.

Kempin: That 'end' means 'end'.

MMJ:  Well thank God I haven't had any reason at all tonight to back up, or evade, or dodge, or get physically excited at all. Because when you contend for the truth with confidence and joy, we never feel that spit baits or fleshly anger will add to the power of the Word of God.

Kempin: And I assure brethren, if I speak to you a little louder than sometimes I have, it's not because I'm angry or wrought-up in any carnal sense, but I'm in earnest about this matter and I wish the truth to be known. That's why I spoke probably with a little greater emphasis at certain points.

I think though having come to this point, that I would wish to thank you for your kindness in listening. I've done my best to present to you truth as I sincerely believe it, and the Lord give you understanding, consider what I have said in the spirit in which I spoke. I spoke in the spirit of Christ with a desire to help; only to help and not to hurt anyone.

_______: You know, when you have a meeting someplace in your congregation, everybody agrees with you. Why don't you meet brother Johnson, rent a hall, and get your congregation and us together with people who believe like you do?

Kempin: Well, I'll tell you the reason why. If brother Johnson would stay with the rules of interpretation of reasonable discussion, I wouldn't be afraid to meet him, anywhere, see. But I think his method of jumping from place to place and bringing in a lot of ideas that the Scripture will not substantiate, and sticking to one point only. To clarify one point. For example, "Who is Israel?" Stay with that, and then stay with the idea, "Does Jesus have any other plan beside the plan of salvation?" Stay with that, and work that out. But not jump from one thing to another to cause confusion, see. That confuses, it does not help.

Morey:   I think we ought to close.   Then maybe we can talk afterwards.

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